Yes, I believe most of what The Bible says, but The Bible saying "being homosexual is wrong" is not a good enough answer for me - I want to understand why so not only it makes sense to me, but so I can back up my perspective when communicating with others. If The Bible says something is right or wrong it should be able to be proven through the world anyway so why not look into the world and see what we can find?
All or nothing
If everyone was homosexual the species would die off. If everyone was heterosexual we would live on.
This is probably one of the most logical reasons on why I think it is fair to label being homosexual as something that is not in alignment with nature. If everyone was gay we would, in fact, eventually die off. Some people may argue that we will never all be gay so this argument is irrelevant. I don't think that's necessarily the case and here's why:
In order to learn things of this world it is common to say things like "based off this fact here" or "if we had this happen this would be the result". I am simply taking some facts and saying based off this, if this were the case this would happen. It doesn't matter whether the "were the case" part ever happens or not. Just cause it may never happen doesn't negate the truth to the finding of it. For example...
Take the example of murdering people. Using the same wording as above: If everyone was a murderer the species would die off. If everyone was not a murderer we would live on. I think the logic follows the exact same pattern. Yes, I know, one is obviously much worse (at least according to our current society) than the other. It is much worse to kill somebody than to be gay, at least IMO. But that's not my point. My point is that if you take one thing such as being gay and not being gay and judge it the same way as another thing like being a murderer and not being a murderer it becomes clear that these are both being judged the same way and they both have negative outcomes. I am not comparing the severity of the crime but rather the logic and pattern of the two individual statements. People are basically 100% in agreement that murder is wrong, why can't homosexuality be held to this same argument? Are there any positive things in this world that DO NOT pass this test?
Family and Raising Children
From a family perspective I think it is pretty apparent that having a man and a woman as the guardians of the child will give it the greatest growth. Both males and females have a unique set of characteristics that help a child get a well-rounded side of things while growing, rather than just all one side. I'm not saying raising a child with homosexual parents is necessarily bad, but in most cases I see it as being worse than raising the child with heterosexual parents. Contrast is usually a good thing and that is what two straight parents provide.
Are people born gay?
I'm also not entirely sure whether people are born gay or not. I'll give people the benefit of the doubt and say they can be. For this reason I can't really make a judgment as to whether or not they were born that way or not, however, if there is enough evidence or rational justification for this being outside of the alignment with the truth it would warrant the individual to work towards a greater truth.
Some people are born lazy and fat. It is pretty clear that being lazy and fat is something that is probably not in alignment with truth and nature, and thus something to be maintained and worked towards improving. Just because you are born fat doesn't mean you have a free ticket through life and are exempt from staying physically fit. I find it to be quite the contrary, you are going to have to work twice as hard as somebody who isn't born fat - deal with it. The skinny person has their own problems that the fat person doesn't have.
Is being homosexual right or wrong?
There are some things that can clearly be seen as not producing progress in this world. Is being homosexual one of those things? I think it entirely depends on the context, just like anything else in the world. I am sure there is some growth that can be found in it as well as some negative attributes.
It's hard to say whether it's right or wrong because so many things go into it. I would say the based off the species of humans not being able to continue to grow and the parenting being a bit skewed, being homosexual is not in as full of alignment with nature as being heterosexual. For these reasons I think it is something that should be overcome.
People may say to me, how can you say that when we are all evolved and the mathematical outcome of one person is just as right as the mathematical outcome of another. Well if that were true it would be totally cool for people to be killers and murder as many people as they want all day long. Humans do have an intelligent choice aspect to them where they have the freedom and knowledge to rule over their body if they choose to possess it.
A set of rules has to be given based off something and that foundation for rules should be set off logic and nature and be continually refined as we grow. This isn't an argument for how laws should be formed but rather an argument saying laws are necessary, I think everyone could agree on that. Laws may change, but there should be some type of current foundation that is in constant iteration towards growth.
Conclusion
It is fairly obvious when somebody is born overweight that they will constantly be faced with the challenge of staying thin their whole life. This will be something that they have to work at harder than other people. If somebody were born gay this would be another thing they have to work at harder than most people.
Based off what I've looked into I would say being homosexual is less in alignment with nature and life than being heterosexual. Does this mean I dislike or exclude gay people? Do I exclude fat people? Of course not, we are all people and we are all in on this life together. Each person has their own unique tests and struggles. One person's weakness is another's strength. Let's all get together to grow and make the most of this life.
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itz not right
being homo is not right its nasty why would you want to be with sum one who has the same thing as you what do you see in it.......like people say itz because they make me feel good or they say that a gurl is better than a guy or a guy is better then a gurl..........i mean that shit is sick and people should not be like that but if thats how you want to be then thats you and know one can do anything about it but god
From My Perspective
Breaking it down to how understanding flows in my mind.
I am not wanting to offend anyone in that we have all sinned. There will be no stone casting here, just my perception.
For those of a sensitivness to this subject, keep in mind if you wish people to bend to your reality, you should do the same for others.
Homosexuality, like astrology is considered abomination according to Bible teaching.
Abomination not meaning to be the unforgivable sin, because the only unforgivable sin is to sin against the Holy Spirit.
Abomination is like the dislike for hypocrisy in that it deceives multitudes in thinking they are on a path of Truths but as they follow it it takes them further away from Truth and find a comfort in the dark.
I take astrology and homosexuality as being this type of misconception.
Astrology is of partial truths and therfore easily misleads many people as adopting it as a guide in life. They then live and reach for man's astrological interpretations rather than GOD's truth.
In remembering the original sin, it makes sense that abomination is vile and sickening to GOD's purpose.
The Bible stresses "Abomination" as awful, because it is, but not unforgivable, and in my book abomination is even somewhat understandable. We live in confusing times.
Homosexuality in my understanding is then an abomination because many feel it is 'love' and 'harmless', so why not just let it be. As this idea grows, so does the multitude.
But this is why the deception is disgusting to GOD's purpose in that the multitude follow it because they see how it is still about the 'goodness' of loving.
I think same-sex love on love is alright with GOD. The abomination come from same-sex sexual activity.
The good news is changes take place all the time, and we are all still learning.
Take Care
Great Comment
Great thoughts :). I appreciate your post and I definitely like your perspective on this topic. Thanks for sharing!
homosexuality
lets start with the basics. scripture says(thess) test everything.....keep the good. what is your test?
every test must be supported by a scriptural thread,be supported by witness thru fellowship, and as in romans 1:20 be proven thru what is created.
scripture
lev....not all prohibitions of themselves were sin ergo household chores on the sabbath
num15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
gen ....gang rape
romans .........abandonment of given relationsships motivated by shamebased lust(niv). anything shamebased causes self-hatred, and low self esteem. anything motivated by shamebased lust would be obsessed with sex and sexual gratification. commitment would be to the lust not to a person.
this bears no relationship to human bonding motivated by mutual respect, attraction,love, and trust for the purpose of a committed relationship ....a shared life with another.
i cor and itim.......... pederasty... the actual translation before the transposition in the mid 1800's with term of homsexuality is......"defiling oneself with man kind. here again this bears no relationship to a shared committed life.
why would procreation take precedence over the ability to provide loving nurturing homes for raising kids........homosexual couples provide this equally with married heterosexual couples. and their sexual intimacy enhances this environment, rather than diminish it.
the proof of this importance over procreation is that homosexual couples are adopting unwanted and abandoned children of heterosexual unions.
doesnt scripture say you will rrecognize them by their fruits. a good tree bears good fruit and cannot bear bad fruit. good fruit being the fruit of the spirit (galatians5)bad fruit being that of the sin nature(galatians5).
HOMOSEXUALITY
EDITING CORRECTION
MAN SAYS THAT SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN.
homosewxuality
first of all scripture does not say homosexuality is a sin . man says scripture says homoasexuality.
the fact that scripture may mention sins committed during the commission of same sex acts no more condemns the orientation than the incestial rape of 2samuel condemns heteroseuality.
you have 2 couples. one heterosexual. one homosexual. they bond together motivated by mutual love, attraction,respect, and trust for the purpose of having committed life with each other. are you saying the spirit of christ condemns one and applauds the other.
if homosexuality is a sin what is the essence of the spirit of homosexuality that it would come against the fruit of the spirit and love your neighbor as you love yourself (the basis for all the law)
Scripture does state
Scripture does state homosexuality is wrong. Read Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own hands."
Only Jesus can Justify Your Sin
I think you are confused about the fruit of the spirit. You can use the fruit of the spirit to love people of the same sex(or have joyful relationships with people of the same sex), but don't confuse that with making love to them. Love and sex are two different things, the Holy Spirit didn't give you sex, it gave you Joy, it's scary you'd try and use the Holy Spirit in a debate to justify a sin. Sex was intended and commanded (remember Genesis 1:28) to be in terms of bearing fruit.
One of the things you should look out for the most, is setting up walls of "justification" that will "separate" you from the sins you are committing. In fact these "walls" are separating you from God. I mean, why would you ask forgiveness for a sin that you've already justified in your mind with words?
The Bible says to, be fruitful and multiply (see Genesis 1:28). A homosexual couple will bear no fruit.
NLT: (New Living Translation): Lev 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin."
I don't know what translation Fred Conwell pulled his scripture from, but ESV, KJV, LB, 1 NIV, NLT, and RSV translations refer man, mankind, or male in Lev 18:22.
We need to stop creating excuses for sin, deceiving ourself into thinking something isn't a sin, doesn't change the fact, and it remains still a sin.
I am not judging anyone, or saying anyone is going to hell, that is not my job. I am a sinner, just as you are. But God loves his children all the same. As Christians, it's important to recognize sin and our lives and rebuke it, and ask for forgiveness from God through Jesus.
Homosexuality is loving
BOTTOM LINE - If you believe homosexual acts are sinful, you sin when you participate. So study this article to see if you are incorrectly judging your own moral life (keeping in mind that even Paul did not judge himself -1 Corinthian 4:3). Be sure you have a relationship with God that will carry you through eternity.
If you trust in Jesus and His cross, you are a Christian in good Hands. If you haven't met Jesus and made Him Lord of your life and Savior of your soul, this introduction is just for you. One fact you can trust - Jesus loves you just as your are. There are about 600 sins named in the Bible; you surely have done some of them. So you are a sinner now wiith a broken relationship with your God. But His Holy Spirit will nag you (some call conviction) about those sins until you recognize them and ask God's forgiveness. He has made a way to make it all right.
To restore that good relationship with God and be ready for heaven:
1. Admit you are a sinner. (Romans 3:10, 23)
2. Realize that Jesus paid the “fine” for all your sins. (Romans 6:23 and 5:8)
3. Admit your sinful condition and ask God to forgive you, knowing that He will. (Romans 10:13)
4. Trust that Jesus has saved you already. (John 3:16)
5. Open the door of your heart and accept Jesus in. (Revelation 3:20).
6. Know that only Jesus can make your way to the Father. (John 14:6 and Acts 4:12)
7. Believe that your brother Jesus will make you a child of God and heir of Heaven. (John 1:12)
8. Tell someone that you believe your risen Lord is also your Savior. (Romans 10:9-10)
Do you still believe homosexuality is a sin? Well, Jesus defines sin as lack of love (Matthew 22:36-40, 7:12; Luke 6:31) . Paul then expanded this love definition in Romans 13:8-11 and Galatians 5:14. So what is sinful about a loving same-sex relationship? Who is the victim being unloved, hurt or sinned against?
Sin is basically disrespect for God and lack of love for self or others. We are to serve God and others lovingly or we serve Satan and death. That sums up all the laws and teachings of the prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40, 7:12; Luke 6:31).
Man-to-man loving sex is OK. It is inherently a non-sin and non-crime.
If God wanted to condemn sex between men, couldn't He have said “Man shall not lie with man” PERIOD. He tacked on the “....as with woman “ because He is offended by straight men imagining they are having sex with a woman as they unlovingly rape their prisoner, cellmate, tearoom contact, etc. (Leviticus 18:22)
Straight people who are acting homosexually (“situational homosexuality” ) should expect the Holy Spirit's conviction for acting contrary to their created nature (Romans 1:26-27). Marrying a woman and playing around on the side with men ( “down low”) is lying to self, spouse and others in imitation of the Father of Lies.
The idolatrous Jewish Christians would pretended they were “as with a woman” while performing as male temple prostitutes (Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1:26-28 ). In so doing they adulterated their relationship with God, (Dt 23:17) denying the One True God over Baal.
Did Paul have a homosexual crisis at Rome, Corinth and Ephesus churches? Some believe Romans 1:26-28, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and 1 Timothy 1:9-11 condemn homosexuality. If so, then where in Paul's letters does he address the legitimate crisis of idolatry amongst the new Jewish Christians in those cities? Certainly infidelity to God outweighed any victimless sex acts. And if homosexuality was so rampant, why didn't he warn all of his churches?
There is no word for “homosexuality” in the Bible's Hebrew and Greek source texts. Since the word “homosexual” was coined about 1865, it is not even in the King James Version. Any Bible using that word is a mistranslation. Instead the KJV and translations thereafter (Matthew's 1549, Geneva 1560 and Tyndall 1536) condemn “sexual immorality” such as heterosexual male-male rape of Leviticus 18:22.
Ready for a big surprise? The Martin Luther Bibel of 1545 (BibleGateway.com) translates Leviticus 18:22 as “Man shall not lie with a BOY as with a woman.” This obviously condemns pederasty, not loving sex between two men. Children don’t yet understand love and sex and so must be protected from unloving sex. Anything unloving makes God angry. What is unloving about homosexuality?
Fear of homosexuality does strange things to a homosexual. Psychologically it is called “reaction formation”. For example, notoriously homosexual King James had his Bible translators render Luther's translation as “with a man” to throw unwise critics off his trail. Substituting MAN for BOY has stuck in all subsequent translations, thereby condemning all man-man sexual relationships, even the loving kind.
Freud theorized that a "heterosexual" individual exhibits strong "homophobia" to cover-up deep-seated homosexual desires. This reaction formation relieves anxiety for the confused emotions of a "homosexual" living a lie. This obsessional neurosis can become a permanent personality disorder.
Have you noted the number of belligerent homophobic preachers who have been arrested with hustlers in restrooms and back seats of theaters? “The ladies doth protest too much.”
Some other possibilities you should consider when obsessing about
Leviticus 18:22:
Does it prohibit only anal sex between two men?
Does it prohibit only pagan-temple sex between two men?
Does it prohibit sex only between two men in a woman's bed?
Does it allow oral sex between two men?
Does it allow sex between two women?
Does it condemn only pederasty with boys ( Martin Luther's Bibel -1545)
Oral same-sex relationships are evidently not covered in scriptures. I presume it is possible to make it an unloving act (sin) if it is not consensual.
Treating a male partner as a woman would be as adulterous as having sex with other women (Leviticus 18:2-20). In the Jewish social order, a boy is two steps down from men; women are one step down. A woman’s job is to make babies. Evidently, sex with another man is not objectionable because they are of equal status, neither degraded.
Consider the attempted male gang rape at Lot's door . For Sodom (and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:4-9), God had already judged the cities for their selfishness toward the poor, pride, laziness, arrogance and general slothfulness. (Ezekiel 16:48-50) That was enough for God to wipe them out. Their abominable attempt to rape God's angels confirmed His decision.
Treating a male partner as a woman would be as adulterous as having sex with other women (Leviticus 18:2-20). In the Jewish social order, a boy is two levels down from men; women are one level down. A woman’s main job back then was to make babies. Evidently, sex with another man is not objectionable because they are of equal status; neither is degraded.
While I am on the subject of reproduction, Gay people are exempt from that order given to Adam and Eve. He intends Gays to be unencumbered by children (Mt 19:12) so they can serve with spectacular love in medicine, education, science, arts, sports, military, politics/government, and even religion. Jesus and Gay people are part of God's plan.
God made it abundantly clear in His word about Who is to be judging us sinners. (Mt 7:1-5, Acts 17:31). And it is Him, not the Pharisees, priests, clergy-people or quasi-religious organization - no one! Paul cautioned the Romans (2:1) and others who are into pre-judging Gay people. So beware lest people discover your secret life.
Jesus defines sin as lack of love. What is unloving about homosexuality?
Note to closed-minded antagonists and homophones:
I could reduce my homophobic detractors to absurdity and show that their hostility is groundless. What would that prove? That they know how to hate. I could rebut every slander, clear up ever misconception and overcome every false opinion. But in the end (sic) I could not refute the intolerance and self-hatred.
When judgmental Christians throw their next homo-free pot-luck supper, I have several recipes for crow. Judging 10% of God's creation through errors in translation certainly will get some judgement from God, if for no other reason than ignorance and closed-mindedness.
About deciding to be Gay: what about the bad “decision” my cat made to be homosexual? I hope the unlicensed psychologists running ex-Gay ministries have a “therapy” for her condition.
Do what God already told you - love one another! Don’t make Him come down there again!
I believe that we are all
I believe that we are all given challenges that we will face here on earth and we agree to those challenges before we get here. Having homosexual feelings is just one of those challenges. Is it difficult? I'm sure it is, just as many things are. But it's not impossible to overcome.
As to why its bad? I couldn't tell you for sure, but I can tell you this. Is porn really bad? It only hurts yourself, right? If you use your logical and rational mind, you might come to the conclusion that porn and homosexuality aren't bad at all. But I would have to say that assumption would be wrong. I think there is things in this world that we as humans can't understand and the soul is one of those things. When we do things that are wrong, it damages our soul. Scientists say that a soul is just some electric pulses waving through our body. If it was that easy how is it that they can't manufacture a soul or create even a shred of artificial life? Again there are things we just can't explain, all sin damages our soul and sexual sin in particular.
This leads to religion, the one reason that Jesus gave us his commandments are to make us happy. That is what Christianity is all about, happiness. Some people that are misguided try to say the root of all religion is to control people. On the surface you could assess it this way, but once you experience it first hand, you find that everything Jesus and his disciples commanded us, was for our benefit, for our happiness.
Logic?
"As to why its bad? I couldn't tell you for sure... If you use your logical and rational mind, you might come to the conclusion that porn and homosexuality aren't bad at all..."
Uhh... why the hell WOULDN'T you use your logical and rational mind? Truth, be is scientific truth or spiritual truth, is ALWAYS logical and rational. If something isn't logical or rational then it isn't truth.
Your kind of attitude is what spurs things like the crusades. Sure its bad to kill people, but these people don't believe in Jesus, so its ok. I mean I guess if we think about it logically it is never ok to kill, but why use the logical and rational mind that god gave us to help make decisions. Let's just go with our 'feelings' instead, that way we can spread more hate because thats what jesus would want. Oh wait...
Ridiculous!
You're ridiculous. I
You're ridiculous. I consider myself to be very very smart with an above average IQ and education. I use logic all the time. I also use feelings to do what is right. Maybe my logic says if I rob someone of their identity, I probably won't get caught and can earn a ton of money. Maybe my logic says I could get away with murder, who cares, its just murder, as long as I don't get caught. Maybe I should do that, because its logical. I can get ahead in life if I steal, plunder and pillage. Look at people throughout history, people who do this get remembered and get rich.
No, sorrry, but its the people that use only logic that commit all the atrocities in this world. If you don't use your feelings you cease to become human. Anyone using pure logic will turn into a psychopath.
And maybe you fail to recognize the feelings that come from god and the feelings that come from Satan. People who fail to recognize the feelings and prompting from god and decipher those from Satan are the people that commit all the atrocities in this world. And they are those who turn into psychopaths.
Ridiculous!
Oh and I won't respond, people like you that try to pick a fight on the internet and argue all day are really starting to drain on me.
Thoughts
I can tell you have really thought about this, and that is definitely a good thing, but I feel like you haven't thought enough about it.
Your reasoning is as follows:
"If everyone in the world does a particular act, and that leads to the end of humanity, then it is wrong (or at least not right)".
You mentioned murder as your example, but lets take something good instead. Lets say you sacrifice yourself by pushing a little kid out of the way of a bus. You are dead, but the little kid lives. Everyone in the world suddenly wants to save people, people are throwing themselves in front of trains, planes, subways, bullets, etc... all in the effort to save other people. Eventually everyone would die execept for 1 person, and 1 person can't reproduce so pushing someone out of the way of a bus must be wrong? Right?
Let's say that for some reason everyone in the world was born gay. The human race would not die off. There are hundreds, thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of cases where a man who is secretly gay has taken a wife, and produced children. If everyone in the world was gay, then some of the people would just 'take one for the team' and have sex with the opposite gender and produce children. Problem solved.
You have said that you really liked that Near-death.com site, well in almost every NDE the message that the survivor comes away with is Love is the most important thing. How can mutual love between two people be fundamentally wrong? That doesn't make sense to me.
I am probably wrong on this fact since I haven't researched it much, but isn't the only place the bible mentions it being wrong for 'man lay with a man' in leviticus? If jesus said it then I would definitely think much more about it, but it sounds like someone got a vision from a fiery bush and wrote it down. Jesus preached love and understanding, even to your enemies. I just can't see how love can ever be 'wrong' if it is between two people (humans) and it is mutual. Tell me, how can that be wrong?
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