I can't say with 100% certainty whether we did or not, but I can say that I do lean more towards the rationalization that we did have the choice of where we were born.

A lot of religious people may find this a bit odd as they will most likely claim it goes against the teachings of the Bible, but does it really? There are a number of places where the Bible talks about being born here on this earth and then being reborn in the next kingdom, but it doesn't really put a limit to this. It doesn't necessary say that we WERE NOT born before this world does it?

On top of this, the fact that the Bible talks about us being eternal beings really drives this point home. Since we are eternal beings (without beginning or end) it makes sense that we must have been being born long before this age and we will continue to be born long after. The questions is, what determines where we are born?

I can't say with 100% certainty what this would be, however it seems to make great sense that we ourselves would determine this by our very own free will. I think the choices we made before this age in the existence that we had before this world could have determined our current position in life. Just as the decisions and choices we make in this world will influence our next life.

The Bible also talks a great deal about heaven and hell obviously, and I think this earth could also be in ways degrees of heaven and hell. The Bible describes hell with certain attributes and descriptions such as "mashing of teeth" and things like this which happen here on this earth. Could it not be possible that Hell is a personal thing which could very well exist right here on this earth for somebody? I'm not saying there's not other dimensions that may have other degrees of Hell (separation from God), but I am saying that the current world we live in fits some of the descriptions given in our very own Bible.

In Summary

Look at different places of the world and different families and cultures. It is very clear that some people are more "fortunate" than others and some people are born into less favorable circumstances. I think these are all completely justified and a deal of what they are now ready to take on with this life. Somebody that was ridiculously evil in another age could now be paying a hard price in this day and age. Somebody who lived a good life in another age may be living his reward. Does it really sound that far off?

Based off these thoughts and the scriptures of the Bible I think it is a fair call to say that we had a choice of where we were born based off free will and choices we have made in other ages besides this one. Does this sound way out there? Think about it and let me know what you think. I would be more than happy to discuss :).

 Filed under: Spiritual, Life, God

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Quinton Figueroa

Quinton Figueroa

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El Paso, Texas

I am an entrepreneur at heart. Throughout my whole life I have enjoyed building real businesses by solving real problems. Business is life itself. My goal with businesses is to help move the human ...

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12 Comments

The Crazy Australian: Unconvinced

I think it is definitely way off.

1st thought: The Bible is so explicit about our next life - why is there no mention of our previous if we had one? Why would this be hidden?

2nd thought: "Based off these thoughts and the scriptures of the Bible " - With regard to a previous life, which scriptures?

3rd thought; I can think of several contrary to the idea:
Hebrews 9:27 "Just as man is destined to die ONCE, and after that to face judgment,"
Read the whole of Job 38 - does it sound like God is talking to an eternal being (Especially 21 "Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!")
Would Mark 14:21 make sense with your idea?
"The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

4th thought: I looked at every use of the word 'eternal' in the Bible and couldn't find any evidence for this phrase:
"we are eternal beings (without beginning or end)"
Every single use (when used to refer to us) is about GAINING a FUTURE eternal life. None refer to the past.
On the contrary, we cannot be without beginning - Genesis 1 says God *created* man.

In fact, the more I look the more clear it is: though God knew of us before he formed us (Jeremiah 1:5 - of course, he must! He knows the future), we were created with this creation. I want to emphasise that: Man was created when this Earth was created. Genesis.

I won't go into the Heaven and Hell thing, as I don't think it is necessary once the idea that we have had previous lives is dealt with. Yet I will say that it would make sense to describe another world using analogues to this world (like gnashing of teeth) so that we could understand it, and that doesn't necessarily mean this world IS that world (any sci-fi readers want to give me a "hear hear" on this?)
This is great.

Quinton Figueroa: Why is there no mention of
@The Crazy Australian (view comment)

Why is there no mention of our previous if we had one? Why would this be hidden?

This is why I look outside of The Bible. It doesn't have all the answers clearly presented. And why would it? Answers aren't simply given to you, you have to work for them. And if that requires going outside of The Bible and coming back to reference it so be it.

With regard to a previous life, which scriptures

I would be referring to scriptures on eternity, many mansions in his house, degrees of hell and things of this nature.

I can think of several contrary to the idea

These versus are fine and all, but they are only talking about this physical existence. Of course we physically die.

I looked at every use of the word 'eternal' in the Bible and couldn't find any evidence for this phrase:
"we are eternal beings (without beginning or end)"
Every single use (when used to refer to us) is about GAINING a FUTURE eternal life. None refer to the past.
On the contrary, we cannot be without beginning - Genesis 1 says God *created* man.

The Bible does not define eternal, at least I don't think it does. What I presented is a definition for eternal. Eternal can mean a lot of things, but it can't mean an eternal future from a starting point.

I want to emphasise that: Man was created when this Earth was created. Genesis.

Physical man yes, but was our spirit? Man is man and spirit is spirit. When talking about man, yes we are created (formed). When talking about spirit we are eternal.

Korihor: Choosing where we live...

I found your site on Digg, and I will comment on this topic. It is of the Mormon bias, since I am a Mormon...These are Biblical References to a 'Council in Heaven' before we came to Earth:
Job 38:7,Isaiah 14:13, Luke 10:18, Revelation 12:7,
Jeremy 1:5, This hints to us existing before we came to Earth.

If we are to have a judgment that determines where we are to go after this life, why wouldn't there have been a judgment that determines where we go BEFORE this life. This is part of Mormon Theology and various Prophets in our church have expounded on this doctrine.

SOUL PROTECTION REQUIRED***********Warning***************
(sarcastic:)
The following are, according to me, and the LDS church, additional scriptures backing up the biblical scriptures pointing out a premortal existance.
Book of Mormon:
2 Nephi 2:17, Alma 13:3,

The Book called Doctrine and Covenants:
D&C 29: 36, D&C 76:25

The Book called 'The Pearl of Great Price':
Moses 4:3
Abraham 3:22, Abraham 4:26, Abraham 5:2

The Crazy Australian: I can't comment on the
@Korihor (view comment)

I can't comment on the references from the non-Biblical texts, since I don't believe them to be from God.

But I was interested in the list of Biblical 'support'. I'll go through them briefly one by one.

First of all, Job 38:7 is actually support for the opposite. Having heard Job's questions, God answers him: Where were you when I laid the earth's foundations? Would it make sense for God to ask 'Where were you?' "while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" (v7) if we were there?
Read the whole chapter. I cannot see how this idea can be sustained! Especially with verses like the rebuking of v21 "Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!"
The whole chapter is written for the opposite purpose: we were not there when he created!

But I suppose you mention it for the 'Council in Heaven' of 'all the angels'. Unfamiliar with Mormon beliefs, I will state that Christianity separates man and angel. They are not the same, and the existence of a council of angels at a time does not imply the existence of man.
Even more, that verse does not even imply that this council has existed for ever:
"while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?"
There were starts - the time of creation or sooner, not eternal.

Isaiah 14:13 - The verse is in future, "I will", but even more: the whole chapter is in the future tense: v1 " 1 The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel". So while the "mount of assembly" may have existed in the past, the verse says only that it will exist in the future.

Luke 10:18 says absolutely nothing about timing. Period.

I'm not familiar enough with the apocalyptic style of Revelation, but the vision described in 12:7 does not refer to men but to angels.

I assume by Jeremy 1:5 you mean Jeremiah. This verse says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
The question is: in what way did God know Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb?
Firstly, would it be possible for God to knot know Jeremiah before he was born? An eternal, omniscient God outside time must know the future - he sees it. It would not be possible for God to not know Jeremiah before he was born.
So the verse does not necessarily mean Jeremiah knew God, just that God knew Jeremiah.
Secondly, God says he FORMED Jeremiah in the womb. From Genesis to here, the Bible says God is creator.

By making humans eternal, you are elevating us to gods. We are the created. To be created is to have a beginning. Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Evolution/Creationism aside - the verse says God created, not only the earth, but the Heavens!

You (Korihor) seem to be suggesting that, since there is a heavenly realm, we must have been in it before being born on earth. The Bible says nothing about Man being in the heavenly realm in the past (though we are to be in the future). It distinguishes between man and angel. And it says we were formed in the womb. Finally, God says "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth?" - answer: We weren't.

Korihor: PreExistance and Genesis 1:1...
@The Crazy Australian (view comment)

How you approach the scriptures pointed out is exactly the inherent flaw of the Bible itself. Everyone interprets them exactly how they would like their point of view to be seen. Which is why it becomes necessary for more information.

Bible means: Collection of Books.
The Catholic church put it together. If the Bible had every possible piece of 'holy' literature in it, it would probably be rather large. Even the bible itself makes references to 'MISSING BOOKS' in and of itself. A few examples of which there are even more than this:
# The book of Nathan the prophet. 1 Chronicles 29:29
# The book of Gad the Seer. 1 Chronicles 29:29
# The book of Jasher. Joshua 10:13; 2 Samuel 1:18
# The book of Shemiah the prophet. 2 Chronicles 12:15
# The book of Iddo the Seer. 2 Chronicles 12:15; 9:29
If these were important enough as to have mention of them in the Bible...Where are they? What did they contain? What doctrinal truths are missing because of it?

Now to quote what you said:
By making humans eternal, you are elevating us to gods. We are the created. To be created is to have a beginning. Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Psalm 82:6 'I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are achildren of the most High.' [The next verse after that says that we will die. True. But we will be resurrected to have our body back reunited with our ETERNAL spirit.]

John 10:34.'Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35.If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36.Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?'

So...Do you believe you are a child of God? I do.
(There are more biblical scriptures, but for my time sake, this is all I am going to point out...)

Let's look at Genesis 1:1:
I did not write the following, nor could anyone but who is inspired write it, I copied it over, and the link to the original text is afterward, this was written in 1844:

"I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible, Berosheit. I want to analyze the word; baith--in, by, through, and everything else. Rosh--the head. Sheit--grammatical termination. When the inspired man wrote it, he did not put the baith there. A man, a Jew without any authority, thought it too bad to begin to talk about the head. It read first, "The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods"; that is the true meaning of the words. Baurau signifies to bring forth..."

"...The word 'create' came from the word baurau; it does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize, the same as a man would organize materials to build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos--chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He [God] had. The pure principles of element are principles that can never be destroyed[;--ed.(Hmmm...Matter can neither be created or destroyed? Where have we heard that before...Einstein anyone? Must mean it is ETERNAL...)] they may be organized and reorganized but not destroyed...The head God called together the Gods, and they sat in grand council. The grand councilors sat in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds that were created at that time."

http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm
This link takes you to a sermon preached by Joseph Smith at a funeral for a gentlemen named King Follet. It is now known as the 'King Follet Discourse'.

Quinton Figueroa: Great response!
@Korihor (view comment)

Great response!

Time and time again, I find the LDS beliefs to make perfect sense on certain points :).

The Crazy Australian: I don't have time to respond
@Korihor (view comment)

I don't have time to respond to this right now, but I will :)

Quinton Figueroa: Thank you very much for your
@The Crazy Australian (view comment)

Thank you very much for your reply :).

By making humans eternal, you are elevating us to gods.

My reply to this would be:

Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High

The Bible says nothing about Man being in the heavenly realm in the past

The Bible talks about us being eternal and living eternally. How can something be eternal, but only in the future? There can not be a beginning to eternal. You can't create eternal. God is eternal and was not created. How can we, being eternal beings, be created then? We can only be created here on this earth for this temporary test. Outside of earth, we are eternal and our spirits have existed eternally. Does this really sound so weird?

It is much harder to explain science and everything else by following the notion that we are eternal yet it only starts from the day we are physically born. If that's the case we technically aren't eternal because we physically die. This whole notion just doesn't add up.

The Crazy Australian: Still not convinced

"The Bible talks about us being eternal and living eternally. How can something be eternal, but only in the future?"
Is this what the Bible says? Does the Bible say we *are* eternal, or that we will gain eternal life? Unless you can find specific examples of the former, to my knowledge it says the latter.

In which case, does our having eternity in front of us necessitate eternity behind us? I would argue no. There are an infinite number of integers greater than 10, but that infinite series has a definite beginning: 10.

Korihor: Look at what you are saying...
@The Crazy Australian (view comment)

The Crazy Australian, look at what you are typing?...

"You can't this..." "You can't that..." "The rule book says this...I interpret it to mean this...I only believe what's in the Bible..."

JOHN 21:25; And there are also many other things which Jesus did the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

That verse ALONE opens up the possibility that Jesus DID more and SAID more, than just what is written in the BIBLE alone. What doctrinal ideals are we missing? What works did he perform? What else did Jesus do that may have been integral to the organization of his church that we don't know about? DID any of those who witnessed what he did write down any of it? Did they record any of it?

The Bible gives no license of itself to declare that the 'Canon' of scripture is full.

I am going to state, the 'rule book' gives more license and leverage to have an open mind about more possibilities, than what we give it credit for. My experience has told me that it comes down to 'leverage and knowledge'...Knowledge is power and small minds would have you not gain more of it. Great minds will offer all that they have and then help you apply it. Corrupt pastors/priests weaponize theology in order to make MONEY. They want to hold you back in belief in order to facilitate the rent to the 2nd vacation home. Any idea or dogma that doesn't toe the party line of 'Nicene Creed' (Which has ZERO biblical support) is quelled and quashed. It would derail the money train...

You claim a belief in the bible...then BELIEVE WHAT IT SAYS, I dare you! Take a serious look at John 21:25. Think it over...reread it, analyze it, think on it again. That verse cannot be taken out of context. I don't care how you try to read it.

Is quantum physics discussed in the Bible? Is Pixar Animated studios mentioned in the Bible? What about iPods, iMacs, Microsoft Studios, SUV's, yet do these all exist? None of that is mentioned in the "BIBLE"! I would implore you, for the sake of logic and progression of your own context, THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX...you wont get in trouble, especially if you belong to a denomination that promotes the 'Grace you are saved by doing ZERO else' or 'I don't need organized religion for God is in my heart...etc', then you have NOTHING to worry about and are saved anyway regardless of what you do. But for the sake of not putting self imposed limitations when they don't have to be, it is ok to think outside the box, I promise, you wont get in trouble for allowing yourself to believe more. An open mind to logical possibilities isn't all that bad is it?

The negativity and lack of hope you are discussing is tragic. It's ok, don't think outside the box. Keep doing what you are doing and you'll keep getting what you are getting.

Henry Ford: "If you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

Just tryin to help a brotha out.

tmelvin: We didn't have a choice.

We are not born begotten children of God. We are, occording to the Bible, created by God, but he did not begot us. The difference between being created and begotten is easily explained in this example. A pregnant women begots her child, and a skillful sculptor creates his sculpture. There is only one begotten child of God, and that is his son Jesus Christ.(John 3:16)

We do not become children of God until we are born again through Jesus Christ. Until that point we are still creations of God (sculptures if you will). So because we are just creations of God's work (think the earth and the stars which weren't around for all of eternity), then I think it's safe to say before this life we did not exist. God created and brought us into this world, like he did the the earth and the stars.

BIC: Choice to be Born

Existential questions are interesting. They go beyond birth though. The big questions. What brought your consciousness, intelligence, and awareness into existence? How did you form an identity in that state of unembodiment, or did you? Was it anything like the identity you have as you're typing on your keyboard at this very moment? Having formed some sort of identity, how and why would you choose a form such as embodiment? If embodiment, then why in a human form? And if in a human form, then why in a particular time, place, gender, race? Why to a parentage of any kind? All sorts of possibilities.

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